I'm finishing the design and implementation of the piece of software that implements the features required for a zone controller and a thermostat. The first take at the usability, as BamaCracker pointed out, looks like "what the F is that???"

So the question is, what are the features required for a thermostat and zone controller, and what are the most annoying things that are specific to the devices you are familiar with, and what is missing.

Here's a list of questions that I can't answer (and I understand that there's no "universal" answer, everybody's going to have their own opinion, I want to hear them all).

Consumer side:

- Does the thought of a computer running 24/7 scare you?
- Would you be comfortable NOT having a wall mounted thermostat, but just a software application that controls your A/C?
- If both were available, and the feature set was identical, but the hardware was more expensive, which one would you choose - software or hardware?
- Do you care if you can use Internet to control your A/C?
- Do you care if you can call into your HVAC controller by phone and reprogram it?
- Would you appreciate an ability to lock your thermostat so your family doesn't mess with it?
- Would you use the scheduling (provided that it DOES REALLY conserve energy) or you don't trust the gadgets and will just leave it on hold?
- If you use the schedule, is 5+1+1 (weekday+sat+sun) resolution enough or you want every day on a different schedule?
- Does everybody in your family want their own temperature in their rooms?
- Is automatic changeover such a good feature, or it is better to just go and do it manually?
- Would you pay additional amount of money for the thermostat that has an ability to tell you exactly how much energy you've spent in a given period of time?
- Does it make sense for tstat to remind you that you better go change the filter?
- What would you expect your tstat to do if it told you to replace the filter and you've been ignoring it for a week?

Technician side:

- Would it be useful for you to be able to diagnose the system via Internet?
- Same using the phone?
- Would you void the service contract if the customer didn't replace the filters in a timely manner and the tstat tells you so?
- Would seeing the temperature/humidity change graphs help you to diagnose the system?
- Do you think it is a good idea to let the HO see the temperature/humidity change graphs? (vt: I don't think so <evil grin> )

Anyway, let me call it installment #1, put on a flameproof suit, and wait
__________________
--vt

quote:

---

Originally posted by vt
I'm finishing the design and implementation of the piece of software that implements the features required for a zone controller and a thermostat. The first take at the usability, as BamaCracker pointed out, looks like "what the F is that???"

So the question is, what are the features required for a thermostat and zone controller, and what are the most annoying things that are specific to the devices you are familiar with, and what is missing.

Here's a list of questions that I can't answer (and I understand that there's no "universal" answer, everybody's going to have their own opinion, I want to hear them all).

Consumer side:

- Does the thought of a computer running 24/7 scare you?

No but I'd rather it not be for general use.

- Would you be comfortable NOT having a wall mounted thermostat, but just a software application that controls your A/C?

No, a wall mounted control is a must.

- If both were available, and the feature set was identical, but the hardware was more expensive, which one would you choose - software or hardware?

Standalone is better for most HO so Hardware.

- Do you care if you can use Internet to control your A/C?

It would be nice but I want more than just A/C control.

- Do you care if you can call into your HVAC controller by phone and reprogram it?

Same as the last one.

- Would you appreciate an ability to lock your thermostat so your family doesn't mess with it?

YES!

- Would you use the scheduling (provided that it DOES REALLY conserve energy) or you don't trust the gadgets and will just leave it on hold?

This would be good

- If you use the schedule, is 5+1+1 (weekday+sat+sun) resolution enough or you want every day on a different schedule?

Both

- Does everybody in your family want their own temperature in their rooms?

If you hae zoned to that level then Yes

- Is automatic changeover such a good feature, or it is better to just go and do it manually?

Auto change

- Would you pay additional amount of money for the thermostat that has an ability to tell you exactly how much energy you've spent in a given period of time?

This would be great but I would like to get whole house info as well.

- Does it make sense for tstat to remind you that you better go change the filter?

T-stat or the master control pannel.

- What would you expect your tstat to do if it told you to replace the filter and you've been ignoring it for a week?

Start bugging you alot.


Technician side:

- Would it be useful for you to be able to diagnose the system via Internet?

Yes

- Same using the phone?

Yes

- Would you void the service contract if the customer didn't replace the filters in a timely manner and the tstat tells you so?

No, I'd rather see the t-stat lock off till the filter is changed. I assume there would be a reset at the filter.

- Would seeing the temperature/humidity change graphs help you to diagnose the system?

I don't know about diagnosing the system but it would be nice so the HO could look at past usage.

- Do you think it is a good idea to let the HO see the temperature/humidity change graphs? (vt: I don't think so <evil grin> )

Why not, it lets them know how there system is working.


Anyway, let me call it installment #1, put on a flameproof suit, and wait

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by timon

quote:

---

Originally posted by vt


- Do you care if you can use Internet to control your A/C?

It would be nice but I want more than just A/C control.

Like what?

- If you use the schedule, is 5+1+1 (weekday+sat+sun) resolution enough or you want every day on a different schedule?

Both

Can you explain, please?

- Would you void the service contract if the customer didn't replace the filters in a timely manner and the tstat tells you so?

No, I'd rather see the t-stat lock off till the filter is changed. I assume there would be a reset at the filter.

Actually, this can be done in a tamper-proof way - analyzing the temperature difference across the indoor coil or the static pressure is a reliable way to determine if the filter is OK, provided that the system was calibrated at the installation time.


- Would seeing the temperature/humidity change graphs help you to diagnose the system?

I don't know about diagnosing the system but it would be nice so the HO could look at past usage.

- Do you think it is a good idea to let the HO see the temperature/humidity change graphs? (vt: I don't think so <evil grin> )

Why not, it lets them know how there system is working.

There's a caveat to it, the controller works in mysterious ways, and while I can understand what a particular change means, I'm not quite sure the same appies to the customers who may start thinking there's something wrong with the system when in fact it's working just fine.

---

---

Consumer side:

- Does the thought of a computer running 24/7 scare you?
NO

- Would you be comfortable NOT having a wall mounted thermostat, but just a software application that controls your A/C?

Yes

- If both were available, and the feature set was identical, but the hardware was more expensive, which one would you choose - software or hardware?
Software for me

- Do you care if you can use Internet to control your A/C?

I don't see a use for it (for me personally) but, it would be a nice option.

- Do you care if you can call into your HVAC controller by phone and reprogram it?

No

- Would you appreciate an ability to lock your thermostat so your family doesn't mess with it?

Absolutely

- Would you use the scheduling (provided that it DOES REALLY conserve energy) or you don't trust the gadgets and will just leave it on hold?

I would use the scheduling

- If you use the schedule, is 5+1+1 (weekday+sat+sun) resolution enough or you want every day on a different schedule?

I like the 5+2 (weekdays + weekends)

- Does everybody in your family want their own temperature in their rooms?

That's what I call the perfect Zone. When I build my house, that is exactly what I will do. Each room will have it's own zone.

- Is automatic changeover such a good feature, or it is better to just go and do it manually?

I like the auto idea, but I would leave the manual as an option.

- Would you pay additional amount of money for the thermostat that has an ability to tell you exactly how much energy you've spent in a given period of time?

That would be a nice feature, but, I don't know if I would pay more for it.

- Does it make sense for tstat to remind you that you better go change the filter?

You mean it won't change my filter for me? Yes it would make sense.

- What would you expect your tstat to do if it told you to replace the filter and you've been ignoring it for a week?

Change it for me Nothing! If I'm too lazy to change the filter then shame on me.

Technician side:

- Would it be useful for you to be able to diagnose the system via Internet?

Commercial applications more than residential I would say!

- Same using the phone?

Same as above

- Would you void the service contract if the customer didn't replace the filters in a timely manner and the tstat tells you so?

No. if it breaks down, they still pay to have it fixed.

- Would seeing the temperature/humidity change graphs help you to diagnose the system?

Yes

- Do you think it is a good idea to let the HO see the temperature/humidity change graphs? (vt: I don't think so <evil grin> )

As long as they can't change anything

Feel free to send me the BETA
__________________
"In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield." - Warren Buffett

quote:

---

Originally posted by infwsdm
- Does everybody in your family want their own temperature in their rooms?

That's what I call the perfect Zone. When I build my house, that is exactly what I will do. Each room will have it's own zone.

That's what I have

- Would it be useful for you to be able to diagnose the system via Internet?

Commercial applications more than residential I would say!

In fact, it is SO simple to implement, you'd be laughing when you look at it

Feel free to send me the BETA

Not impossible. As a matter of fact, as soon as I'm done with the remote implementation, I'll make it available read-only, proving real time or X minutes delayed readings (you'd be surprised how much you can tell about someone's life by just watching the temperature in the house), so you can criticize it all you want

Later, it's quite possible that I will provide assistance if you wish to run the pilot, provided some participation on your side.

---

why ? just what every home needs the ability to play with the thermostats even when not at home.

cynic:

Think about it this way: if this ability is a side effect of providing a complete remote diagnostics run, why not?

Ya'know, about 50 years ago people were asking "are we really that lazy so we can't lift our butts and change the channel on TV?"
__________________
--vt

quote:

---

Originally posted by vt

quote:

---

Originally posted by infwsdm
[b

Later, it's quite possible that I will provide assistance if you wish to run the pilot, provided some participation on your side.

---

---

No Problem. Count me in
__________________
"In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield." - Warren Buffett

infwsdm:

Then dig up the "diy zoning" thread, figure out my Email (should be pretty easy) and start asking questions. My setup cost me just under $500, that's for 10 controlled rooms. Wall controller should run about $100+ retail, but I didn't have a chance to implement it yet. Should be pretty straightforward, though.
__________________
--vt

Scuse me for sounding like I am about to attack you but would you please get out of our business and stay out! All that you mention is available on various all ready built systems and I get sooooooo tired of watching this stuff run mechanical systems into the ground. OK, a little exagerated but not that much. Anybody ever read the article on zoning using a package unit put out a few years back about the decrease in life expectancy and increase in equipement problems when zoning was hooked up to a package unit?

See, I work on lots of this stuff. When I trouble shoot systems the one lesson I have learned is that I must isolate all microprocessors as much as possible away from the mechanical system to see where the problem is. Most of the time it is in the electronics.

So yesterday I get a no zoning sensor display call from a new home owner who has a top of the line 4 zone system with all the bells and whistles. He is a high tech guy in the computer software business with all the high tech stuff. I know cause I had to hook it up. His system is down. Calls the general contractor who calls the mechanical who calls me. The whole bunch of them have called everyone else, done all the remote trouble shooting through their various computers, ran all the self testing through their computers and on and on. So this high tech owner is really concerned and somewhat upset to have paid all this money and the thing is not working and he - as in himself-- can't figure out why with all of his hardware, sensors, feed back, etc. isn't working.

So I go. Yep. Power switch on the side of the air handler was turned off. What can I say. This is the same guy that was mad at me because one of the zoned bed rooms was too cold. So I asked him is he increased the set point on the wall sensor. He's frustrated at me cause this is suppose to be a fully automated, self sensing, know what you want before you want it system. And he just found out he needs to 1)before he call check the on/off switch; 2)adjust the temperature set points for each zone himself.

This is not an isolated example.

So, go away. I appologize again. But I mean it too.
__________________
In this ambiguouse world of immediate gratification, where discomfort is avoided, and only apearance, is maintained at all costs, people forget that "cutting your teeth" is painful.

DeltaT:

Well, I sort of expected something like this, but didn't expect it this harsh.

However, no offense taken. Now, give me the benefit of a doubt and allow me to explain my position.

I am a programmer. I am a professional. It is a fun job, but it comes with a curse: I have to know the subject matter as good as my own job, if not better.

During my career, I had to become an expert in computer graphics, computer viruses, communications, networking, banking and finances, stock trading, used equipment remarketing, then finances again, then motion and process control. Were I not able to do that, I'd be out of job permanently. Like I said, it's a curse.

I believe I have never said something that amounts to "this is not a rocket science" about HVAC. To me, it is a rocket science, and it is something I have to become an expert in so I can move on. I am working on it. As a matter of fact, I'm planning to get a HVAC certification and be able to talk to you as equal to equal.

Do people make mistakes? Of course. Everybody does. I try to learn on mine. Thank you for bringing to attention the fact that using zoning systems shortens the system life, I haven't seen references to this before but now that you've brought it up it seems obvious, along with the things that cause it - increased static pressure in the duct, possible increase of temperature drop together with increased internal pressures in the system - this is what I can see so far, hope I'm right here. If I am not, I'd really appreciate if you could tell me what the causes are.

Do people make stupid mistakes? Once in a while. The most stupid one I've done was when I didn't check the power supply voltage before turning the prototyping board power on, and it turned out to be 25V instead of 5V, which gave me a rare opportunity to watch the results of 3 months of my work boil and burn. That was sad. Am I guaranteed from repeating something like this again? No. Nobody is. Did that guy you told us about make a stupid mistake? Probably yes. Probably it was aggravated by arrogance, or a fear of "loss of face". For all I know, he just had enough money to buy the gadgets, and wanted to appear "technical" - it has to be pretty stupid not to realize your airhandler is not running, given you have all your system "automated" - the airflow sensor is a basic element of any fault tolerant system.

Now we come to WHY am I doing what I am doing.

The ready built systems suck, from my point of view - and believe me, I can stand by this and prove every single bit about why do they suck. To name a few, they are ridiculously expensive, outrageously simplistic, your example shows that they are not fault tolerant and can't really handle anything that comes out of ordinary. And they do not satisfy my requirements, which are pretty basic - I want my family to be comfortable.

The approach I have taken allowed me to abstract from the cost and concentrate on usability - what difference does it make if you are using $10 register or $200 damper? This, by the way, is the only difference between what I've done and ready built systems. My intent is to beat the existing systems on price and feature set, no less. I was able to achieve the result that I wanted spending 10 times less than the conventional zoning systems START AT, having surpassed the value that it brings already. I don't believe in 1000% markup, so there must be something wrong with those existing systems.

Do I realize the risks related to what I am doing? Of course. This is why I experiment on 30 years old unit, not on a brand new one. But believe me, every single issue, no matter how remote or seemingly insignificant, is scheduled for investigation, and every single issue will be taken care of, and then I will say I am ready.

Am I having delusions of grandeur? Quite possible - you tell me. Am I paranoid? Of course - like the joke goes, being insane is usually a pre-requisite for becoming a sysadmin. In the few cases where it's not pre-requisite, it's certainly going to be a bonus.

I used the word "pilot" on purpose - this is all experimental stuff. I don't sell it. infwsdm is a pro, and I take his interest in this as a compliment - but again, he must realize the risks he is taking. And I do realize the risks I am taking in even exposing this stuff here - you, the professionals, must be able to see through hints I'm dropping, and the whole picture must be very clear to whoever cares to take a look at it.

Bottomline.

I didn't take the offense because I understand your frustration. Please try to look at what I've said as a mature adult, and don't take any offense too - I don't mean any.

Will I leave this project? No, I have completed it already.

Will I continue to work on it and tell you the results so you can at least laugh at a clueless engineer who can't even realize how stupid he is? Depends on you.

In your message, you've made a perfectly clear warning to the HOs that read this forum about the risks and dangers of not understanding oneself's doing, and I join you here - kids, don't do this at home. I hope I know what I am doing, and appreciate every bit of your collective courtesy to point out my mistakes - I'm sure I'm making some. But I'm learning.

Let's play together. Together we stand, divided we fall.
__________________
--vt

Well, had I known you would have taken me so easy I wouldn't have been so light on you.

Here's a couple of things to think about. The price for these systems must be high due to the nature of the installations AND the amount of on going and uncontrollable follow up required to break in the new owners. Someone must go back and re-explain, sometimes over and over again, how to use these systems to the HO's. Give this some deep thought. This is not like installing a new card in a computer slot and powering up.

This is dealing with HO's that no matter how precise and exact your system is, she or he will feel a cold draft, or a local ventilation code must override your system, or the sensors you use will not be the sensors the HO's grew up with, or the mechanical contractor did a poor job of installation, or the compressor came out of the factory locked up, or the wife will accidently switch off the master controller, or .... see where I am going here.

I do a good deal of trouble shooting for contractors who installed these systems and now are amazed at how many warranty calls they get that comes after a great, normal and proper installation. And it' all money out of their pocket just as it will be yours.

I have one customer now who has a 4 zone system with one zone in the media room that demands air flow in that zone whenever he switches the fan switch to on of that standard wall thermostat in that room. How would you handle a customer like that?

You might want to check with Lennox, I think about one of the zone manufacturers they work with that has all the fun things such as remote communication and control, plotting, graphs, etc.

I have a couple of customers that I can think of now that operate their zoned home systems from their lap tops including points, temps, graph, run time, etc. Funny thing is they have no operational wall sensors so when their wives want to change any temperature anywhere they have to wait for their husbands to get home. I don't think the husbands are going to be happy for long.
__________________
In this ambiguouse world of immediate gratification, where discomfort is avoided, and only apearance, is maintained at all costs, people forget that "cutting your teeth" is painful.

Oh, and one more thing while I am enjoying my arrogance.

"Let's play together. Together we stand, divided we fall."

Gotta tell ya. I have been doing this a long time as well as most the others on this board. And I have been doing just fine by myself and ourselves. You really need us more than we need you. Just that your statement seems to say we need to work together. We don't. On the other side, I am more than willing to enjoy all of the positive aspects that you might bring to our industry.

__________________
In this ambiguouse world of immediate gratification, where discomfort is avoided, and only apearance, is maintained at all costs, people forget that "cutting your teeth" is painful.

Afraid to ask this but just have to , just how is someone going to be able to do any remote diagnostics ? what good is it even on the larger commercial stuff with all the bells and whistles(usually proprietary to each manufacture) the best it can do is tell what something is out on or if software is calling for something. Robbie the robot doesnt pop out of a secret panel and fix whatever is wrong.

Zoning forced air into many small zones is a good way to kill equipment as of now there is not a single piece of residential equipment out there that can handle the differing airflow requirements of a zone system with more than say 3 zones without some very serious compromises or dumping air somewhere. even 2 zone systems are full of compromises.

Want each room to have its own control ? hot water it can be done add a buffer tank and equipment doesnt even take the abuse hell even control it with a computer for playing with the thermostats from the other side of the planet. air minisplits ,zoning is just not able to do room by room control with air. a rapidly disapeearing skill is proper duct design in theroy any home could be done with a single system and the proper duct work to begin with and have no temp swings throughout it, want different temps in different areas use different systems there done ranting