I'm considering zoning my home. I have 2 units and 2 zones at the moment. I want to take the top floor and expand the one zone to 4 zones and also maintain expandability to at least 6 zones (I've just moved into the home 2 months ago and I'm not familiar with the summer). I had a contractor come in and he "eyeballed" the entire job and told me he could do it for about $1,200 but didn't commit that to writing. He said he would need someone to come in and count the ducts, take measurements, etc.

Contractor #2 took measurements of all the rooms, counted the registers in each, and calculated the CFM needed for each room and determined only one room (the Master bath) requires an additional register (there are two already in the bathroom). I just received their bid for $4,800 to do the work (thermostats, dampers, labor, control unit, testing, 5 year warranty). I have 13 ducts in the attic that will have air dampers put into all of them. These guys are also charging me $650 per installed humidifier (Aprilaire) and $1,100 per Aprilaire electronic air cleaner.

Which estimate sounds about right? Anyone want to come up to NJ and put this system in for less?
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Every once in a while, even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

What Brand zoning equipment? Contractor 2 is more in line
with price. get more quote's.

Reading your post again, you have 1 zone Which is for the hole
upstairs.? you want to add 3 zones to make 4? which rooms?
and you want to be able to add two more later? Just want to be clear. does the $4800 include the humidifier and elect.
air cleaner?



[Edited by Dependableairservice on 02-01-2002 at 03:22 PM]

The $4,800 does not include the humidifier and air cleaner. The equipment is Arzel. Upstairs would be converted from one zone to four. The rooms zoned would be 1. MasterBath 2. Mater Bedroom and a Bedroom (same side of house) 3. 2 rooms on other side of house and 4. The finished attic.

Supposedly the controller is expandable to 6 zones in case the extra rooms in zone 2 and 3 need to be kept on their own zone.
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Every once in a while, even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

Yes Arzel 1206 ups good for up to six zones. like i said
zoning price sounds about right. I would still get a few more quotes, sorry to say but forget the 1st guy.

Look into other factors befor you start zoning. You don't say what type heat you have, but all types of heating equipment have a minimum CFM they need to operate at to keep from cycling the limits. If you break up your system to 4 zones what will your CFM be with only one zone calling?
Bypass dampers set me off. You're bypassing the air directly from the supply to the return. This really has to help out the effeciency of the equipment and the lifespan. Also when bypassing the limits cycle. Any time a system cycles on the limit, you aren't helping the lifespan of the equipment, not to mention the lifespan of the limit device.
You wake up at 2:00 shivering because your limit tripped and didn't reset.
There's a lot more to this than simply adding dampers to a system.
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Rottendog

At some point in most peoples lives they come to the understanding that some things are best left as is.

Rotten, no room is zoned by itself with the exception of the finished attic and it has 3 registers and a return in it. The guys did calculate the min CFM and there suggestion was to go to 4 zones instead of 6 so I don't have a small bedroom (the nursery) with only one register in it and they did mention the bypass damper. They also mentioned that Arzel is more desirable than Honeywell since it uses air pressure to control each damper. Instead of attaching a motor to each duct and thereby increasing the points of failure to 13 instead of the one point of failure with the Arzel.

The house is about 4,000 sq ft. and there are 5 skylights and the house has 50 windows. I just think the zoning and humidifiers and airfilter price is a little high. ($4,800 zoning, $1,300 2 humidifiers, and $2,200 2 aircleaners [a total of $8,300])

I think Dependable's idea to get a few more bids is a good idea. Now the problem is how do I find experienced, competent contractors who do this work. I'm in central Jersey. Any ideas?
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Every once in a while, even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

Hey, this sounds like a real good candidate for the new honeywell wireless thermostats. Their receiver can control, I believe, 9 zones and you would save money on running t-stat wire {though I am sure the cost of wireless t-stats may even that out}.
Thanks
REAK

Multiple zones? Wireless thermostats? For God's sake, save those thousands of dollars, just pay a little more
each month and keep you heat/cool system simple. When your
warranty runs out, you are going to have a problem system when things start wearing out. Then you are going to rack up $$$$$$. In the end, you probably would have saved no money. Definitely go for the humidifier and Electronic air cleaner though.

dna:

Cruel life is such that not all houses and not all climates allow you to get away with one or two thermostats. Trust me, I have it all graphed - it is quite possible for the temperature in the room where there's no thermostat to be 14F different from the temperature in the room with the thermostat (82 vs. 68).
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--vt

I agree with DNA but I have a question on zoning because I am have not done much research on it. My question is when Zoning is installed does it also zone the return side?

If it only addresses the supply side, where is the benefit? DELTA P per room?

ZoneMe I agree there are many other improvements you can make that will have a better payback. Read all the post on this site on Combustion Air, Humidity, Drafts, and Zoning etc.

Do your research on all your ideas and then spend your money

Good Luck
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"The quality of my performance, sometimes depends on the quality of my audience."

If you have 14F difference from room to room you have a major ductwork/balancing problem. I think that problem should be addressed before thousands of dollars are invested in a zoning system.

to answer a lot of question's go to http://www.arzelzoning.com
ZoneMe you can find contractor's there also that install
Arzel.

[Edited by Dependableairservice on 02-01-2002 at 09:32 PM]

That's an expensive install, the humidifier and air cleaner that is! Go for the zone system, but let an expert design it properly. Ask him about other installs that were similar(zone system); let him prove himself. We have done many forced air zoning, but not the Arzel. I will be checking on the Arzel system. Looks like it operates on pneumatic principle, very interesting.

Dependableairservice, I went to the site and it did not answer my question. With Zoning are there dampers in the return system as well? If not, then there will be a Delta P in each area where there is a return. Providing supply to some of the rooms will not be effective, because of the Delta P in the others. The air will travel to those rooms to eliminate the Delta P. Thus raising or lowering the temperature as well. It may take a bit longer but the air will travel to eliminate the pressure difference.

If the returns are dampered are the blower and gas valve etc variable to compensate for the lower airflow.

Sorry for all the questions, but I do not see the advantages for the cost. My thoughts not data and I may be missing something! Here in the North we install two complete and separate systems i.e. one for upstairs and one for lower level with both systems in the basement.

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"The quality of my performance, sometimes depends on the quality of my audience."

Up in the North, we don't(two systems). I'm sometimes amazed of what we do in the HVAC industry. We all have our preference, our experience, and knowledge. Zoning works, but sometimes it doesn't pay. Have the contractor make out a saving cost sheet, zoning versus two separate systems or a cost analysis having a zone system or not.

It's not uncommon in todays resduential building designs to find high vaulted cielings, fully glazed southern exposures unshaded for that view :-) So zoning has it's benifits... There is simply no way to control a large residential home, 2 story, 3 story, single story or like wise on one, two three thermostats... It just isn't done.

Check these folks out I'm just completing a total of 26 zones of comfort using their product California economizer... Coupled with two LGA360H, 30 ton gas/eelctrics we could,'t ask for a more beautifully running system.

http://www.hvaccomfort.com

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AllTemp Heating & Cooling

Xavier, no damper's in retutn, bypas is installed. Check out AllTemp diagram.
AllTemp this system use's motor damper's or air?
Xavier, here in GA. builder's were installing 1 system on
1 and 2 story Home's. Now they are putting in 1-2-3
sytem's per Home. Zoning is to me more eff.

I still think that the preferred way is the same as my Uncle taught me over 40 years ago, a high and low louvered return in each room as well as a supply.

Close the high return for heating and switch for cooling (open the high and close the low). This also allows balancing the system using the returns.

I do not understand way so many of the systems in the South have only "1" central return. COST?

I will continue my research on zoning, but it still appears very expensive. Also if there is no return in each room will there be much flow? I have always explained that unless you remove the old air the best you can do is to average the temperature!


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"The quality of my performance, sometimes depends on the quality of my audience."

The problem with zoning systems is that most aren't designed and installed properly.

No, there are generally not dampers in the return duct, although many systems have motorized dampers for the bypass. Personally, on residential I don't see the need for motorized bypass dampers-I use the barometric. When you bypass back into the return far enough back, you generally don't have the cycling problems previously mentioned. It's still a good idea to use a freeze stat to protect the compressor, though.

The key to zone systems is oversizing the ductwork and the number of outlets to accommodate the extra airflow that results when other zones are closed. How much oversizing depends on the number of zones, and their comparative sizes.

When you oversize the duct correctly and use the bypass system correctly, there won't be a "Delta P".



Properly designed zone systems are wonderful-they save money, and greatly increase comfort in the home; not just by reducing temperature differences between rooms, but also by lowering humidity in the summer.

Those that say zone systems don't work, either don't understand them or have only seen improperly designed and installed ones.

quote:

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Originally posted by dna
If you have 14F difference from room to room you have a major ductwork/balancing problem. I think that problem should be addressed before thousands of dollars are invested in a zoning system.

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I have installed the Arzel zoning equipment. The system works just as advertised. The furnace and a/c do not cycle on limit switches because the Arzel control panel prevents it. The return duct placement makes no difference as long as the air can get from zones to return grille (s). Most other zone systems use damper motors that are gear driven. Anything with gears is expensive. Pnematic dampers are very simple and should last along time. The people at Arzel are also great. They have answered every question I have had. When I order equipment I usually get it in 3 days. They can make a custom damper to any size you want and ship to me in 3 days.
For years I hated zoning systems because I found they caused the a/c to frost up. Then somebody would put a thermostat on the evaporator coil set at 32. That would cause the condensing unit to short cycle and trip the breaker. I also have replaced or disabled many gear driven dampers that failed after a few years. The system that changed my mind about zoning is from Carrier. The control is very clever but way too complicated.
The price sounds ok to me also, but get more quotes. I know this can be tough though. It sounds like the guy that gave the $4800 quote did all the leg work he needs to.
David

Take look at the other topic - "DIY zoning".

dna: 14F difference is explained thusly:

- The A/C cares about the temperature in the room where the thermostat is.

- If the other rooms have different heating/cooling gradients, the temperature there will drift. Different gradient will appear as soon as there's a difference in size, insulation, exposure, presence of people/equipment, open/closed doors, window blinds, in other words, anything.

- In my case, the thermostat is in the huge living room with single-pane patio doors - which means it overshoots all the time when it has to work. The other rooms are upstairs (scorching hot), and downstairs (pretty cool).

- The balancing is different depending on whether it is sunny or cloudy, ambient temperature, where the sun is, wind.

Bottomline, unless you have a sensor in every room and control the airflow, you will not have a balanced house.
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--vt